[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] New: Better handling for multiline tabs

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Bug ID: 99528
Summary: Better handling for multiline tabs
Product: LibreOffice
Version: Inherited From OOo
Hardware: All
OS: All
Status: UNCONFIRMED
Severity: normal
Priority: medium
Component: ux-advise
Assignee: libreoffice-***@lists.freedesktop.org
Reporter: ***@cib.de
CC: libreoffice-ux-***@lists.freedesktop.org

Created attachment 124669
--> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=124669&action=edit
Paragraph style: Current layout

Currently we have some dialogs which have multiple rows of tabs, for example
the "paragraph style" dialog.

I find it highly confusing to use this kind of tabs. As they are not in one
row, it is hard to read all tabs to get a glance what tabs you have. Also when
selecting a tab from the top, that row moves to the bottom, which is even more
confusing, since the position of all tabs changes.

I have two ideas how to improve the situation:
1. Leave the tabs as they are (multiline), but don't switch rows when selecting
a tab from the top.
2. Stop using multiline tabs at all and use vertical tabs instead (have them on
the left).

Any thougts on this?

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB) <***@cib.de> changed:

What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
CC| |***@cib.de
Ever confirmed|0 |1

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #1 from Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB) <***@cib.de> ---
Created attachment 124670
--> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=124670&action=edit
Mockup: Vertical tabs for paragraph style dialog

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #2 from Heiko Tietze <***@gmail.com> ---
The proposal was to introduce icon views instead of tabs. Looks tidy and modern
with icons and enough white space. But I remember harsh criticism saying we
cannot change all dialogs.

http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg07251.html
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/PropertyDialog

An alternative is to just disable multiline tabs. In that case, arrows allow to
navigate to the undisplayed tabs.

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #3 from Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB) <***@cib.de> ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #2)

Post by b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org
The proposal was to introduce icon views instead of tabs. Looks tidy and
modern with icons and enough white space. But I remember harsh criticism
saying we cannot change all dialogs.

In this case we have *17* tabs. That would mean a lot of scrolling with your
mockup. I'm sure power users would complain very soon. If anything, I would
keep the small tab size and add icons left to the text, like:

[icon] label
[icon] label
...

Post by b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org
http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg07251.html
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/PropertyDialog
An alternative is to just disable multiline tabs. In that case, arrows allow
to navigate to the undisplayed tabs.

This is ok as long as there is one or two tabs that cannot be shown by default,
but I wouldn't do it if half of the tabs need scrolling, this would also
seriously slow down power users.

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Cor Nouws <***@nouenoff.nl> changed:

What |Removed |Added
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CC| |***@nouenoff.nl

--- Comment #4 from Cor Nouws <***@nouenoff.nl> ---
(In reply to Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB) from comment #3)

Post by b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #2)

Post by b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org
The proposal was to introduce icon views instead of tabs. Looks tidy and
modern with icons and enough white space. But I remember harsh criticism
saying we cannot change all dialogs.

In this case we have *17* tabs. That would mean a lot of scrolling with your
mockup. I'm sure power users would complain very soon. If anything, I would
[icon] label
[icon] label
...

Looks as a reasonable idea.
Wrt power users: one might expect a decent key stroke to move to the
next/previous page/tab. Maybe the same as currently.

We must realize that also dialogs with as little as two tabs exist. Then the
labels in a vertical row is a waste of space..

(In reply to Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB) from comment #0)

Post by b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org
1. Leave the tabs as they are (multiline), but don't switch rows when
selecting a tab from the top.

I would love to see some experimenting with that.

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #5 from Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB) <***@cib.de> ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #4)

Post by b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org
We must realize that also dialogs with as little as two tabs exist. Then the
labels in a vertical row is a waste of space..

Sure, I am talking about dialogs with more than one row of tabs, I wouldn't
change the others.

Post by b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org
I would love to see some experimenting with that.

Maybe we can do this as a first step and then iterate? Or do we want to ban
multiline tabs at all, then I won't waste time on this.

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #6 from Heiko Tietze <***@gmail.com> ---
Stacking text/tabs to avoid whitespace and having different UI concepts that
would be two epic design failures.

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #7 from Cor Nouws <***@nouenoff.nl> ---
(In reply to Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB) from comment #5)

Post by b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org
Sure, I am talking about dialogs with more than one row of tabs, I wouldn't
change the others.

Would look odd to me, to have two types..

Post by b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org

Post by b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org
I would love to see some experimenting with that.

Maybe we can do this as a first step and then iterate? Or do we want to ban
multiline tabs at all, then I won't waste time on this.

I would love to have a look with a not so much used dialogue maybe in a daily.
Heiko, what do you think?

Honestly I see no solution, bringing more improvements that drawbacks ;) , in
the first option.

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Yousuf (Jay) Philips <***@hotmail.com> changed:

What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keywords| |needsUXEval
CC| |***@hotmail.com
Component|ux-advise |UI

--- Comment #8 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips <***@hotmail.com> ---
When there is a limited number of tabs and the dialog contains functionality
that is seen by basic users (benjamin), the icon-based vertical tabs which is
found in the hyperlink dialog is nice. We are hoping to implement this in a
simplified options dialog (bug 90989).

When there are many tabs and the dialog is primarily focused on more
experienced users (eve), the non-icon vertical tabs found in the options dialog
is nice. MS Office does a similar type of vertical tabs dialog with sufficient
white spacing between each entry -
Loading Image...

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Thomas Lendo <***@gmail.com> changed:

What |Removed |Added
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Blocks| |102019

--- Comment #9 from Thomas Lendo <***@gmail.com> ---
I find the current layout much more clear and faster readable than any vertical
layout. Most people are used to read LTR or RTL, not top to bottom or reverse.
Also there is much more horizontal than vertical space. Using a scrollbar would
be a usability disaster. A vertical layout should only be an option for very
few (~handful) points.

Disabling multiline tabs and showing arrows to scroll reduces the usability too
because you can't have all options at a look, what's important especially for
Benjamin to find the right tab/option.


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102019
[Bug 102019] [META] Dialog bugs and enhancements

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #10 from Yousuf Philips (jay) <***@hotmail.com> ---
(In reply to Thomas Lendo from comment #9)

Post by b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org
Most people are used to read LTR or RTL, not top to bottom or reverse.

The contents of the tabs are ordered top to bottom in columns.

Post by b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org
Also there is much more horizontal than vertical space.

That all depends on how the controls are organized. Many tabs have extra wide
controls for no reason (e.g. Character dialog's hyperlink and highlighting
tabs, nearly every tabs in the Paragraph dialog)

Post by b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org
Using a scrollbar would be a usability disaster. A vertical layout should only
be an option for very few (~handful) points.

Cant say i agree with you, as when you have content that is larger than the
available space, scrollbars are common and useful (e.g. browser, file manager).
Alternatively you would have to have more vertical tabs, but you wouldnt be for
scrolling within the vertical tabs.

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Lior Kaplan <***@gmail.com> changed:

What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blocks| |43808


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43808
[Bug 43808] [META] Right-To-Left (aka Complex Text Layout) language issues
(RTL/CTL)

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Yousuf Philips (jay) <***@hotmail.com> changed:

What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blocks|43808, 102019 |113108


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43808
[Bug 43808] [META] Right-To-Left (aka Complex Text Layout) language issues
(RTL/CTL)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102019
[Bug 102019] [META] Dialog bugs and enhancements
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113108
[Bug 113108] [META] Dialog UI/UX bugs and enhancements

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Heiko Tietze <***@gmail.com> changed:

What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
See Also| |https://bugs.documentfounda
| |tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11
| |3418

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Heiko Tietze <***@gmail.com> changed:

What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Severity|normal |enhancement

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Heiko Tietze <***@gmail.com> changed:

What |Removed |Added
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
See Also| |https://bugs.documentfounda
| |tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12
| |0371

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #11 from Mike Kaganski <***@hotmail.com> ---
Having no tabs at all, and have every area collapsing/expanding (like "Other
options" section in Find & Replace dialog) would IMO be much better option.
Such layouts are used e.g. in apps like 3ds max, AutoCAD (MS Office has a
single non-collapsing long sheet, and that is much worse). Having a dialog with
all such sections initially collapsed would create something like ToC right in
the middle of the main dialog area; clicking the expand button would
automatically bring the area to the center of the dialog; and the scrollbar
would only be needed when several of the areas are expanded (and then it would
be handy IMO, not a "usability disaster").

[b***@bugs.documentfoundation.org]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #12 from Heiko Tietze <***@gmail.com> ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #11)

Having no tabs at all...

The pattern is called accordion and would change the native integration (see
also bug 120371 c15). Not an easy decision.